Dissidia 012 Plot Analysis FAQ
by Glenn, The Twilight Mexican April 5, 2011 0 comments
Mentioned in our “Dissidia 012 Review and Story Analysis” article, this is TheLifestream.net’s exclusive — and extensive — plot analysis FAQ of the Dissidia Final Fantasy series. This is the most comprehensive such analysis of Dissidia’s story around — the closest thing to a Dissidia FF Ultimania Omega you’ll ever find, unless Square Enix decides to do one, of course.
We hope that this article enhances your enjoyment and appreciation of Dissidia, and perhaps your understanding of it as well.
• What is the world that serves as the battleground for Dissidia?
What I often refer to as a Katamari ball of the various Final Fantasy worlds, the world in which the Dissidia conflict takes place is an amalgamation of the worlds of the first 13 main Final Fantasy titles, with the World B version of the first FF’s world serving as the base template into which everything else is placed.
Its status as such is confirmed twice during the Shade Impulse portion of the first Dissidia. First, in a conversation between the Emperor and Golbez from Shade Impulse cutscene 14 (Golbez: “This world is formed of shards brought from different realms by the two gods”); second, in a conversation between Sephiroth and Garland during SI Chapter 3-2 (Garland: “… This world is composed of elements collected from different realms”).
An apparent consequence of this shattering of worlds and realms is that all their inhabitants — with the exception of Chaos and Cosmos’s chosen warriors — are but disembodied consciousnesses in the realm of Dissidia; lost souls drifting around the world.
In Chaos Report 5 from the first Dissidia, Cid of the Lufaine mentions trying to give physical form to some of these spirits:
While observing how they acquired pawns to
fight in their conflict, I found that a great
number of the consciousnesses had drifted to
this world from other dimensions.
I wondered if I might be able to give those
consciousnesses physical form. After countless
experiments, finally my testing reached success.
The failures were sealed in the Interdimensional
Rift.”
Reports 15 and 16 from Dissidia 012 elaborate on this matter, explaining that Cid of the Lufaine also attempted to use his own memories as the basis for a new life form. He was only successful in creating one such being, however, and from his own memories only:
“Attempts at embedding my own memories to
manikins fail.
Like the ‘failures’ of my old experiments,
they do not retain human likeness.
No complete memory transplant could be done.”
(From Report 16)
“Memory successfully embedded in experiment.
Confirmed non-crystallization of body.
Difficult to sense any will in its eyes,
perhaps caused by incomplete transplant.”
Read on for more about Cid’s work and its consequences.
• Were the shattered worlds ever restored?
The various worlds included in the battle world’s composition were restored to their proper places when the cycles of conflict were brought to an end, per Golbez’s remarks in Shade Impulse scene 14: “As long as Chaos reigns, the shards are fated to sink into endless darkness. But if Chaos perishes, the shards would be released, returning to where they once were.”
The Warriors of Light must have asked Laguna for directions to Cornelia here. Better late than never?
• What are Worlds A & B?
Mentioned at the beginning of all of the Reports is a location designated either World A, World B, or both. Presumably the world to which the events detailed therein apply, what are these in reference to?
While the game never spells the point out directly, World A is the world of the first Final Fantasy, from which Cid of the Lufaine hails. World B is the world discovered on the other side of a gateway to the Interdimensional Rift by Lufenian scientists — a world in ruins, but one which bears the same world map as World A.
World B is the version of this planet that serves as the basis for the conflict of the gods seen in Dissidia.
Whether they are different time periods of the same world, or different dimensions’ incarnations of the same world, is unclear.
• What are the orbs of light on the world map?
In all likelihood, these orbs are the spirits/disembodied consciousnesses of the unfortunate denizens of all the realms that were sundered by the circumstances of the war. Notice that the first of every four orbs broken and absorbed carries the message “A frail power of the dead dwells.”
• What is that white tower on the world map?
That’s Order’s Sanctuary. It’s Cosmos’s place.
• What are the manikins?
Reports 8, 9 and 10 speak of a mysterious form of life with the appearance of a crystal ore. It changes form in reaction to the appearances of nearby life forms, but has no discernible will of its own.
The ore was discovered by Lufenian scientists who sent investigation teams to World B through a gateway to the Interdimensional Rift. They used this ore for many experiments in which they attempted to produce artificial life, and named these simulated life forms manikins.
They still demonstrated no will of their own, however, and so the scientists attempted to grant them consciousnesses via imbuing them with transplanted memories.
In almost all cases, these experiments failed to produce the intended results.
As detailed in Chaos Report 5 from the first Dissidia, as well as Reports 15 and 16 from Dissidia 012, Cid later attempted to create more perfect manikins, but only succeeded in creating one — and from his own memories. All his failed experiments were sealed in the Interdimensional Rift and would later be discovered by Exdeath, according to his in-game Museum profile, to become the army utilized by the warriors of Chaos in cycle 012:
Fearful symmetry?
• What is this “crystal ore” used to create manikins?
After the release of the first Dissidia, a number of fans noted the similar appearances of the manikins to the random encounter enemies fought by Zidane and his crew in Crystal World, the final dungeon of Final Fantasy IX. Those enemies, weaker simulacrums of the 4 Chaoses from FFIX, also behave in similar manner to the manikins in that they display no consciousness, despite those whom they imitate very much possessing intellect.
It may well be that the crystal ore discovered by the Lufenian scientists is either material from Crystal World, or at least something very much like it, such that it imitates the appearances of others the way the ore in Crystal World did after Kuja resurrected the 4 Chaoses there.
At the very least, we know there is some strong association between memories, crystals and life given their repeating, interrelated appearances in such Final Fantasy titles as FFVII, IX and X/X-2, as well as the “Source of Power” article on pg. 8 of the Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 2: Scenario guide. If the graph under “Circle of Life” on that page is any indication, it seems that planets with Lifestreams — which grow from the accumulation of memory — have crystals at their cores.
Given that Cid and the other Lufenian scientists were successful in producing genuine life — Chaos, Cosmos and the Warrior of Light — from inserting memories into the crystal-like ore that so resembles that of the material composing Crystal World, it may not be a stretch to surmise that the first living creatures were produced in a similar way given that there was no other physical material present in Crystal World.
• Who is the Great Will?
In a metatextual capacity, the player is identified as the Great Will at the end of Inward Chaos from the first game.
As far as the story itself goes, however, Cid of the Lufaine is identified as the Great Will in the Chaos Reports, specifically Chaos Report 10. Earlier hints to his identity came from Garland telling Chaos that he had guided him “in accordance to the Great Will’s wish,” since Cid mentions in Chaos Report 4 that he’d gotten Garland to agree to “stand at the right hand of discord.”
As well, both Shinryu’s profile in the first Dissidia’s Museum and Shinryu’s brief dialogue with Chaos near the end of Shade Impulse make it clear that he had been assigned a task by the Great Will. In Chaos Report 3, Cid mentions that he’d made a pact with “a certain dragon wandering through space and time”; this dragon, of course, was Shinryu.
For its part, Dissidia 012 outright refers to Cid of the Lufaine as the Great Will in his in-game profile under the Museum, and Cosmos addresses him as such in the cutscene from Report 20 (Japanese version only):
あなたも自分の道を歩んでください
さようなら シド.
(In the official English translation, Cosmos’s use of “Great Will” is replaced with “my divine creator.”)
• What are Chaos & Cosmos?
KOS-MOS is a powerful, armored gynoid, developed by the interstellar conglomerate Vector Industries, while chaos is the failsafe of the universe, the human incarnation of the power of Anima.
… Wait, wrong game.
[Note: The following information in this and the next question’s response either come straight from or are a synthesis of information in the Cosmos Reports, Chaos Reports, Shade Impulse, Inward Chaos storyline and Secret Ending of the first Dissidia, and the Museum Character Files, text-only portions of the Reports and Confessions of the Creator elements of Dissidia 012]
Chaos is both an anthropomorphic entity embodying the concept of discord, and a successful manikin created by Cid of the Lufaine and scientists of the Onrac nation from the memories of 10 or more unidentified individuals.
Who these people were or whether they were unusual in any way is unknown, though it is known that they were executed afterward for confidentiality purposes.
Cosmos, meanwhile, is both an anthropomorphic cosmic entity embodying harmony, and a successful manikin created by Onrac scientists from the memories of the manikin that would become Chaos.
Following his creation by the Onrac scientists, the military recognized Chaos’s magnificent magic potential and intended to use him as a weapon to defend itself from other nations, one of which commanded summon creatures as well as the robot Omega from Final Fantasy V. While preparing him for his introduction to the battlefield, Chaos — who had a beastly but nonetheless childlike form — was raised by Cid and his wife.
For reasons I will elaborate upon a couple of responses further down in this Q&A, Chaos had no interest in destroying anything unnecessarily, so once the military called upon him, they ordered Cid’s wife — whom the creature viewed as its mother — to command him to destroy the nation in command of the summons and Omega.
Despite its own immense power, Omega was banished to the Interdimensional Rift along with the summons, and the nation they served was reduced to what Report 2 calls “hell itself.”
Afterward, Cid’s wife was plagued by guilt and refused to be party to further violence. Consequently, she and Cid were locked up, branded traitors, and a new manikin was created — this one a similitude of Cid’s wife, formed with Chaos’s memories of her as the basis. They named this clone Cosmos.
• How did the war of Dissidia begin?
Not long after their imprisonment by the Onrac military (covered in the previous response of this Q&A), Cid and his wife learned of the similitude’s existence and the military’s intention to use her as a means of controlling Chaos. Unwilling to allow this, they escaped from their prison and infiltrated the lab where Chaos and Cosmos were being kept.
As they prepared to escape with Chaos, a guard shot Cid’s wife, injuring her. Seeing his mother so wounded, Chaos was filled with rage and lashed out with the power of discord, opening a gate to the Interdimensional Rift in the process. The facility was destroyed, and Cid, Chaos and Cosmos were all lost to the Rift.
Some time later, they encountered Garland, as well as the cosmic dragon Shinryu, a traveler of time and space via the Rift.
Seeking revenge against the Onrac military, Cid entered into a bargain with Shinryu: Cosmos and Chaos would be pitted against one another in war, utilizing pawns summoned from many worlds. As the pawns battled, they would accumulate experiences — memories — that would then be harvested by Shinryu once one side had lost. The condition of losing would be met when either all warriors on one side died or their respective deity was felled.
Shinryu would then reset the pieces on the board, reviving whichever god had died along with any dead warriors on either side.
After absorbing the memories of the combatants to gain more power, Shinryu would share some of the newly accumulated power with Chaos, and, thus, both would become more powerful with each cycle. In this way, Shinryu received payment for his involvement in Cid’s war.
In addition, Cid asked that Shinryu give him immortality by taking his body and allowing him to reside in the realm as a disembodied consciousness observing all developments of the war.
Though Chaos initially had no interest in fighting against Cosmos, as she was his mother’s clone, Cid was able to get Garland to convince him to fight. Garland was also the one to give Chaos his name, which he did at this time.
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A quick point re: OK
I don’t think it’s Luneth. If it is one of the new DS version heroes and not one of the OK from III, then I think it might be Ingus.
Luneth is the archetypal ‘Rush in ASAP’ hero, regardless of who is involved. Ingus, by contrast, is much more reserved, wanting to examine a situation before leaping in, much like OK in Dissidia. Though Ingus certainly would not ‘fight only battles he was sure he could win’ he would do everything he could to maximize his chances.
I reckon that OK is a younger Ingus, years before ever becoming a knight of Sasune.
Besides, OK has his hair and his color scheme. It takes the Luneth Alt for OK to look anything like Luneth.
Just my 2c.
Fair points. I’ll add mention of the similarities to Ingus in as well. Thanks, Ryu.
I gotta ask, when was it stated that Chaos lost the 13th and several cycles afterwards in 000? Because I can’t find that stated in the game.
On a second look, you are right. I’d misinterpreted this line previously: “The Cycle of destruction and purification gave Chaos power and corroded his
mind.”
I’d taken this to mean that Chaos had received purification over and over (in which case he would have died), and that this had messed with his mind. However, it’s said that Cosmos herself receives purification over and over and loses power over time: “Cosmos was true to her mission, even as she lost her memory after every purification. … Cosmos’s power to summon warriors eventually started to wane. After the 20th purification, she could not summon any new pawns for herself.”
I guess the reference to purification in the line about Chaos just means that he kept getting more and more powerful, and the increase in power made him insane.
So, Confessions of the Creator is more like an expanded version of Inward Chaos then. Thanks for the correction. I’ll add it in, along with further thanks to you. =)
Hi… er. Why is this posted under ‘Final Fantasy VII’?
Also, your Seventh Heaven Strategy guide appears to be a dead link.
PS: I’m still reading this article.
It’s under the “Final Fantasy VII” category because I forgot to add tags when I posted the article, and that’s the default tag. Thanks for pointing that out. I went ahead and fixed it just now.
You finished reading the article and have anything else to add?
I believe regarding manikins are truly merciless they have no will of their own they will continue slaughtering their victim including destroying their victims flesh which is why I even though Terra was nearly about to die she killed the manikins before they killed her and leads me to believe that if you have no Flesh Shynryu cant revive you, If the villains kill you they will leave your body but I believe manikins dont know any better so they will continue to slaughter a body.
I’ve considered that possibility before, but since Shantotto apparently vaporized Gabranth and he was still brought back for the next round of the cycle, I don’t think it’s the case.
Thanks for throwing that out there, though.
I though Gabranth ran away with shame after his defeat against Shantotto, and in the end he ended up in a place thats not in the gods battle ground or so it says on dissidia 013 game I cant remember where I read that.
Well, his profile says that he went into hiding after being defeated by Shantotto, but it’s clear from their fight that she killed him. So I assume it was in the next cycle that he went into hiding, once he’d been revived.
ah ok yea that makes sense but killing him doesnt mean she destroyed his flesh which is why I believe no body = no revive also doesnt shynryu keep reviving chars until they can no longer give him “experince”, I mean if a character has no body he cant really absorb their experience to make himself stronger because he only heals their body he doesnt make them their body if he made their body then that probably make them manikins which I believe they arent manikins.
Don’t the bodies of all the warriors of Chaos discorporate into black smoke upon death, though? So they really don’t have bodies when Shinryu arrives anyway.
In any case, I thought Shantotto incinerated Gabranth. She said she would, and he wasn’t there after the battle.
New here, but I had a few opinions/questions.
First off, you pointed out that the Dissidia world is an amalgamation of the various worlds from the main series’ games. What would you say the gateways are supposed to be? Distortions of the Dissidia world, perhaps (given that in a single gateway a character battles manikins on different stages)?
As far as the necessity for Chaos and Cosmos summoning new warriors every so often, could it simply have been (in addition to your points) that Chaos and Cosmos, being pawns themselves of Cid and Shinryu, were simply summoning new warriors in their attempts to win? Cosmos, as I understand, was unaware of the cycle, so would it not make sense that she was summoning more warriors for the sake of winning?
When talking about Terra’s and Cloud’s survival, you said “Though Cloud wasn’t killed by a manikin, he was killed by his own side’s god…” That god being Chaos…who, as you noted, was in fact a manikin himself. Nothing really relevant there, I just found it amusing, though I could see someone not very pensive being confused by that.
This wasn’t ever covered (and I’m a little surprise no mention was made of it), but do you think Golbez was a warrior of Cosmos at some point in the conflict? At the end of Cecil’s Destiny Odyssey (in the 012 version; the scene was evidently revised from its original representation in the first game), Mateus and Exdeath have a conversation in which they discuss Golbez’s betrayal. Mateus uses a familiar phrase – “a heart of light with a body of darkness” – in reference to Golbez. Exdeath also mentions the harmony/light has not yet left Golbez. It very much sounds as though they’re referring to him having been sided with Cosmos some cycles ago. (Forgive me for not regurgitating the colloquy; I couldn’t find the 012 version of this scene ANYWHERE online).
As far as the inconsistencies mentioned at the end, I’ll give a few of them a shot:
As far as Kuja being manipulated by several of the villains when Sephiroth wasn’t, all I can suggest is that Kuja was more emotionally/mentally fragile than Sephiroth, who wasn’t easily manipulated, if for no other reason than he more or less showed a disinterest in their ploys.
About Chaos’ inability to transport himself and Cid to their world, perhaps, despite his immense power, teleportation just isn’t one of his abilities? Clearly he can conjure beings from other dimensions/universes, but it could be just that it’s a one-way street sort of thing. He can summon things, but cannot transport himself over space and time. That might be implausible or flat out ridiculous, but it’s about the best I can come up with off the top of my head.
On that note, it was apparent Cid was unable to find the gateway to the Rift and so return to his home, which explains why he couldn’t access his homeworld. I think a better question is, “If Cid doesn’t know where the gateway to the Rift is (since he needed Chaos to find it for him), how was he able to seal manikins in the Rift?” All I can think of there is that he had access to the Rift, but not the gateway to return home. By being able to enter the Rift but not have a doorway to his homeworld, he could conceivably seal up the manikins while at the same time be unable to return home.
Just some questions/thoughts. Feel free to correct me/shoot me down wherever necessary. I certainly haven’t put as much thought or effort into the storyline as you, so any theories I have may easily be explained by an oversight on my account.
First, thank you for your very thorough and thoughtful response. =)
-“First off, you pointed out that the Dissidia world is an amalgamation of the various worlds from the main series’ games. What would you say the gateways are supposed to be? Distortions of the Dissidia world, perhaps (given that in a single gateway a character battles manikins on different stages)?”
Yes, actually, that’s exactly how I would have described the gateways.
-“As far as the necessity for Chaos and Cosmos summoning new warriors every so often, could it simply have been (in addition to your points) that Chaos and Cosmos, being pawns themselves of Cid and Shinryu, were simply summoning new warriors in their attempts to win? Cosmos, as I understand, was unaware of the cycle, so would it not make sense that she was summoning more warriors for the sake of winning?”
Cosmos was also aware of the cycle itself, actually. Check out the conversation between Golbez and Cosmos in the second story segment of Report 7.
-“This wasn’t ever covered (and I’m a little surprise no mention was made of it), but do you think Golbez was a warrior of Cosmos at some point in the conflict? At the end of Cecil’s Destiny Odyssey (in the 012 version; the scene was evidently revised from its original representation in the first game), Mateus and Exdeath have a conversation in which they discuss Golbez’s betrayal. Mateus uses a familiar phrase – “a heart of light with a body of darkness” – in reference to Golbez. Exdeath also mentions the harmony/light has not yet left Golbez. It very much sounds as though they’re referring to him having been sided with Cosmos some cycles ago. (Forgive me for not regurgitating the colloquy; I couldn’t find the 012 version of this scene ANYWHERE online).”
You know, that’s an excellent observation. Yeah, I’d agree — Golbez must have belonged to Cosmos at some point.
Now that you bring it up, I notice that the original dialogue alluded to it, but they evidently realized that it wasn’t explicit enough and revised it. Here’s what it was in the original:
Emperor: “It was right to give him space. We now see his true colors.”
Exdeath: “Indeed. He is a betrayer to the last.”
Emperor: “I suppose it was only a matter of time until he became aware of the light within him… Nevertheless, we must resolve this issue before Shrinyu makes its move.”
And here’s the new version:
Emperor: “It was right to give him space. We now see his true colors.”
Exdeath: “Indeed, he is finally caught in the act. His inner light of harmony never faded.”
Emperor: “A heart of light in a dark body… How intriguing. We must resolve this issue before Shinryu stirs.”
Makes me think that they probably did the same thing with Kuja after all, and that he hadn’t originally been summoned by Chaos. This would explain why he discorporates into white smoke like Lightning and co. when he dies in Shade Impulse.
I notice that they’ve also removed Garland’s reference to him as new. This was the original flow of that conversation:
Garland: “You are growing reckless, Kuja.”
Kuja: “You again… Have you come to laugh at me, too?”
Garland: “Not at all. You and I are the same. Not just me. We are all the
same. Even that witch, Ultimecia… We all bear the same fate. You have only
been…directed…because you are new.”
Here’s the new one:
Garland: “You are growing reckless, Kuja.”
Kuja: “You again… Have you come to laugh at me, too?”
Garland: “Not at all. You and I are the same–warriors summoned to this land by the god of discord. And that is the truth for all of us. Even that witch, Ultimecia… Not one remembers everything. You were used when you had just awakened.”
Seems like Garland is now elaborating on the new conversation that Kuja had with Ulty earlier in which she now tells him that his memories have been tampered with (in the original, she told him of his mortality instead).
Seems like I’m going to have to make some more edits to the FAQ to account for all this.
-“About Chaos’ inability to transport himself and Cid to their world, perhaps, despite his immense power, teleportation just isn’t one of his abilities? Clearly he can conjure beings from other dimensions/universes, but it could be just that it’s a one-way street sort of thing. He can summon things, but cannot transport himself over space and time. That might be implausible or flat out ridiculous, but it’s about the best I can come up with off the top of my head.”
It is true that we never see him teleport, but didn’t he just sort of pop up at the beginning of Shade Impulse when he wasn’t there before? Right before he killed Cosmos, I mean.
He wasn’t there, then the scenery deteriorated, Tidus looked around him, looked back at Cosmos, and suddenly Chaos was floating in front of her.
-“On that note, it was apparent Cid was unable to find the gateway to the Rift and so return to his home, which explains why he couldn’t access his homeworld. I think a better question is, “If Cid doesn’t know where the gateway to the Rift is (since he needed Chaos to find it for him), how was he able to seal manikins in the Rift?” All I can think of there is that he had access to the Rift, but not the gateway to return home. By being able to enter the Rift but not have a doorway to his homeworld, he could conceivably seal up the manikins while at the same time be unable to return home.”
That’s the thing, though: the rift the manikins were coming out of was the one that was opening because of Chaos’s growing power, per Cid’s plan. And Cid knew of this rift, so why didn’t he go through it?
Thanks again for your feedback. I look forward to hearing from you again.
– “Cosmos was also aware of the cycle itself, actually. Check out the conversation between Golbez and Cosmos in the second story segment of Report 7.”
Yeah, I had completely forgotten about that scene.
– “Seems like Garland is now elaborating on the new conversation that Kuja had with Ulty earlier in which she now tells him that his memories have been tampered with (in the original, she told him of his mortality instead).
Seems like I’m going to have to make some more edits to the FAQ to account for all this.”
I’ll admit I haven’t played that far into the game yet (not on the 012 version, anyway), otherwise I may have caught that revision as well. I’ll also admit I find Golbez WAY cooler than Kuja, too, and I tend to focus more on the characters I like the most, quite naturally.
Glad I could help. It’s awesome that someone decided to make such a comprehensive analysis/FAQ. Being able to contribute is sort of a service to FF fans.
– “It is true that we never see him teleport, but didn’t he just sort of pop up at the beginning of Shade Impulse when he wasn’t there before?”
Also a good point, but perhaps the developers differentiated between short-distance teleportation and long-distance teleportation. It is somewhat logical, after all, and Chaos teleporting back to his homeworld would also require him to teleport himself across dimensions, not just from one spot to another on the current planet he’s dwelling.
It could also just be the developers didn’t think about it. I suppose you can’t expect them to cover EVERY detail (or maybe you should expect it…I don’t know), and like I said earlier, it’s just a presupposition off the top of my head.
– “That’s the thing, though: the rift the manikins were coming out of was the one that was opening because of Chaos’s growing power, per Cid’s plan. And Cid knew of this rift, so why didn’t he go through it?
Thanks again for your feedback. I look forward to hearing from you again.”
Yeah, I have no idea about that, either.
I’ll be happy to provide further commentary as I crawl my way through my current playthrough and (hopefully) discover further points of interest.
-“Glad I could help. It’s awesome that someone decided to make such a comprehensive analysis/FAQ. Being able to contribute is sort of a service to FF fans.”
I very much appreciate your help. =) I’m glad you like the FAQ.
-“I’ll be happy to provide further commentary as I crawl my way through my current playthrough and (hopefully) discover further points of interest.”
I’ll be looking forward to it!
Slight disagreement on the comment about Shantotto in the “Why was Cloud ever on Chaos’ side to begin with?” section.
While Shantotto is indeed ruthless and seems to have erased Mercy from her dictionary, her heart’s in the right place. In XI, she’s fiercely loyal to the Federation of Windurst (her home nation) and was an active participant in saving the world on at least 3 accounts (providing valuable enemy information to the Allied Nations during the Crystal War, going undercover to assess the situation in Aht Urhgan, and showed up at the last moment to stop Domina and Bella Shantotto from Shantottofying everyone in Vana’diel).
I’ll concede that I sounded a bit too harsh on Shantotto there. That was meant to be a joke, but it didn’t come across as such, did it?
BTW im really loving the analysis plot not just this game I read the other analysis plots from other FF games.
Thanks.
Which others have you read?
Hm, I have a question for you if you can answer it. It’s more of something that I’m curious about really.
It’s clear that Jecht went from team Cosmos to teams Chaos, but were other villains who were once warriors of Cosmos as well? Say like Golbez, Kuja, or even Sephiroth?
It’s pretty clear why I ask for Golbez and to a point Kuja. But the reason why I ask for Sephiroth is because as you said in your FAQ, Sephiroth doesn’t seem to have a lot of memories of his home world as Cloud does. Which seems very off to me and sort of reminds me of how Jecht was in the first Dissidia. When the Emperor told him that he was once a warrior of Cosmos he seemed very surprised by it. Then there’s the fact that Sephiroth summons the Masamune in a flash of light like the heroes do, versus just carrying it around like the villains. Also he vanishes in a flash of light sort of the same way Kuja does when he dies.
So I’m really wondering if at some point Sephiroth was a warrior of Cosmos, something happened and he was defeated, and when he woke up he was a warrior of Chaos with almost no memories. Or is it just SE nodding their head at Sephiroth’s hero status before Nibelheim?
I think that Seph manifesting his weapon as the heroes do is just referencing his hero status prior to the razing of Nibelheim.
I don’t think he was ever on Cosmos’s team. Changing sides shouldn’t affect homeworld memories, as both Cloud and Jecht seem to retain the significant amounts of it they’d recovered.
Also, unlike Kuja, they wouldn’t really need to feed him false memories or goad him into fighting, so tampering with whatever memories he had shouldn’t have been necessary.
Okay, cool. Thanks for answering. It’s something I’ve wondered about because I’ve been trying to figure out at what point everyone came from their game. With some it’s pretty clear (like Kuja and Zidane I’m sure they’re post game), with others it’s a guess.
Ah ok I definetely Agree then yea the pyreflies with the villains so that obviously isnt it then, wonder what truly is the reason behind for not being able to revive heroes killed by munchkins
Just wanted to keep everyone informed: all necessary updates have been applied at this point. =)
Thanks again to everyone (here and elsewhere) who has commented and strived to improve the article!
Appreciated that you added my question to the FAQ. As one of my college (high school to Americans) teachers said – “If you have a question about something, chances are that someone else will also have it.”
You’re very welcome. =) And, yes, your teacher was right.
As promised, I do in fact have a few more questions.
How exactly are the characters in Dissidia able to perform some of the feats they do? I know your article mentions the concepts of Ex Mode and the supernatural abilities that accompany it, but what about abilities such as Free Air Dash? With the except of Advent Children, it’s not really known for the characters to be able to perform such a stunt like boosting themselves forward (or backward, in the case of Reverse Free Air Dash) in mid-air. On that note, where do they derive the power to perform magic in this game? Cloud’s arsenal of bravery attacks include numerous fire spells, yet Materia (presumably) doesn’t exist in the Dissidia world; Squall, likewise, can performs attacks such as Thunder Bullet and Fusillade, yet he doesn’t have GFs to junction magic attacks. If there is some other element that allows magic to be performed by all the characters in Dissidia, that might also provide a more satisfactory answer to why Terra and Kefka are able to use magic (though “a wizard did it” is certainly satisfying enough for me given all the other things that have occurred in the game).
Any insight on that topic would be most interesting.
On a completely different and much more minute topic, what causes Squall’s crystal at the end of Chapter 7 in Light to All (Destiny Odyssey VIII) to emit a light pointing toward Bartz? I’ve wondered how it was able to react like that since my first playthrough of Dissidia.
Sorry for the slow response. Meant to do this sooner and got tied up with other things.
Stuff like Free Air Dash I won’t even attempt to address. =P I’ll be straight up with you on that. And I don’t think we’re really meant to. That sort of thing has got to be just gameplay-related.
As for magic in general, thanks for bringing up those points. Tifa and Cloud do, indeed, use magic despite us having no reason to believe they have materia. Squall could be given a pass, perhaps, since one can still use para-magic in the world he comes from without junctioning GFs — though that still leaves points like Laguna never running out of ammunition.
Yuna, meanwhile, even has her aeons back, despite the game making it clear that her pilgrimage and Tidus’s death is in the past tense for her.
“A wizard did it” really is the best and only explanation. Some folk who are dead set on trying to bring the game down or don’t like to picture it as canon may not ever accept that, but you can’t reason with a fool who chooses to be a fool knowingly anyway.
In answer to your last question about Chapter 7 of Light to All/Destiny Odyssey VIII … a wizard did it? =P
No, I’m kidding. Your guess is as good as mine, really. Probably something to do with the crystals being born from a combination of the heroes’ resolve and Cosmos’s own power, so it pointed in the direction his heart was set.
– “Sorry for the slow response. Meant to do this sooner and got tied up with other things.”
Full-time college student with a full-time job right here. You have my understanding.
Another point of interest (for me, anyway) that I came across occurs in Chapter 10/Destiny Odyssey I. From the beginning of cycle 013 Warrior of Light seems to recognize Garland (or at least knows who he is), made evident during the scene between the two before WOL battles him the first time before ever leaving Order’s Sanctuary. WOL refers to Garland by name, yet he should have no memory of Garland since Team Cosmos lost the previous cycle and, as made abundantly clear, Dissidia chronologically predates FFI, so there’s no “homeworld memories” argument to obfuscate the matter.
He knows him because the story of cycle 013 apparently begins a good while after that cycle had already begun. Remember, the opening to the original Dissidia is actually part of the story.
And the Silent Presage scenes included in the releases of Dissidia outside Japan (and in the Universal Tuning rerelease in Japan) took place before that opening battle sequence.
That clear things up?
The way the opening of Chapter 10 (WOL’s story) and the prologue/Silent Presage were situated made it seem like the prologue led straight into WOL’s story, given that the prologue ends in Order’s Sanctuary and the first dungeon in WOL’s story took place solely in Order’s Sanctuary. I could be mistaken, though. I wonder, though, if the opening battle in Dissidia is canon, why is not included in 013?
I also would like to point something out regarding your well thought out Garland timeline (I could actually have a lengthy discussion on that topic, but I’ll keep it brief). You suggested Garland from World B was transported to World A after Dissidia, transported back in time by Chaos/himself, and then thrown back into the world of Dissidia, explaining why he remembers the time loop from FFI. However, in the opening scene for the Inherited Memories gateway in the 013 epilogue, we see this exchange between Golbez and Garland:
Golbez: “What is it that you know? Who ARE you?”
Garland: “Nothing so dire as you imagine. I was once made a prisoner of a time loop. The Great Will saved me from that fate. In return, I agreed to carry out a task.”
While this doesn’t discredit your conjecture, it seems to provide a discrepancy. Again, you suggested Garland, after traveling to World A following Dissidia, is pulled into the time loop and sent by Chaos back into the Dissidia universe. Garland, during this conversation with Golbez, makes it clear that it was the Great Will who pulled him from the time loop. This also begs the question if that the Great Will saved him from the time loop and that was the reason Garland carried out the task of watching over the deities battle for eons, what did the Great Will offer the first time he met Garland (assuming your theory that Garland was originally a product of World B)?
It should also be noted that Garland was evidently involved in the FFI time loop for a cycle or two anyway, as he describes himself as a “prisoner” of the time loop. If he had only been killed, transported back in time, and immediately thrust into World B in the Dissidia universe, he would have had no time to realize he was trapped in an actual time loop and would simply have deduced he had been pulled 2000 years into the past without any notion that he would repeat the cycle indefinitely.
…Okay, that was much longer than I intended, but when dealing with a convoluted subject such as time travel, you can seldom be brief. Anyway, just some thoughts on the Garland timeline mystery. Hopefully you can shed even more light on this mind-boggling subject.
Excellent work!
However trying to seperate heads from tails in a story that involves two cycles and time space rift is impossible 😛 I would very much like to hear your thoughts on these two points
1) if they propose that dissidia is a prequel to FFI how come Garland says to Chaos ( in shade impulse) that when he was on the verge of death it was chaos who sent him 2000 years in the past? that happens in FFI after WOL defeats garland for kidnapping the princess :s that puts dissidia after FFI
2)Also the text entry says that WOL heads to cornelia with a darkened crystal in hand. But the WOLs had shinning crystals that they used (along with defeating each fiend) to restore the light to the apropriate big crystals. It seems like WOL returning with a darkened crystal means he returns to a peaceful world of FFI -after its ending-
Thank you for your compliments. =)
In address to your questions:
1) I talk about this in the section about Garland in the FAQ. For Garland, being defeated at the hands of the Warriors of Light happens before Dissidia.
He’s mortally wounded by them, left on the floor dying, and then Chaos pulls him through time — but also drops him off in World B, where he resides until meeting Cosmos, Cid and Chaos (Garland’s own past self).
After Dissidia ends, he’ll go back to where he last was before entering World B: 2000 years in World A’s past. He’ll then gain more power, become Chaos once again, and reach across time to the future to save his past self, who is dying after being defeated by the Warriors of Light.
At least that’s how it will go until he’s defeated by the Warriors of Light before being able to pull his past self across time. Who knows what becomes of things after that.
2) That is a good observation. However, since the Warrior of Light was born on World B during the conflict of Dissidia, he’s never been to World A until the ending of cycle 013. He couldn’t have taken part in the events of the first FF yet.
Someone made a mistake there, it sounds like.
-For Garland, being defeated at the hands of the Warriors of Light happens before Dissidia.-
Thats the crazy part lol. he is defeated by WOL before dissidia while WOL doesnt get in that world until after dissidia!
Damn SE and those loops! :p
No wonder… Whenever I saw the ending for original Dissidia I would get a nostalgic feeling that the ending of Dissidia was the beginning of FF1, because the scene staring at cornelia castle “warriors will be holding crystals”,Also Im starting to think the crystal that WOL obtained in dissidia somehow “revives” or powers up the ones being guarded by the elemental fiends.
Response to clide88:
“The way the opening of Chapter 10 (WOL’s story) and the prologue/Silent Presage were situated made it seem like the prologue led straight into WOL’s story, given that the prologue ends in Order’s Sanctuary and the first dungeon in WOL’s story took place solely in Order’s Sanctuary. I could be mistaken, though. I wonder, though, if the opening battle in Dissidia is canon, why is not included in 013?”
I imagine it was left out for disc space considerations. Even the Silent Presage cutscenes and the primarily text-based exchange between Kefka and the Emperor discussing Sephiroth’s suicide was left out, after all, and Cid of the Lufaine’s voice-over monologues about the heroes during each of their chapters are heavily abridged from what they were in the Destiny Odysseys of the first game. Each is cut by about half.
You can also tell at a glance that the cutscenes from the original game were compressed at a lower quality in order to fit them all on the disc.
In any case, as an example of how the FMV opening from the original game actually fits into the story, recall that the last shot of it is of the Warrior of Light laying face down on the ground in the vicinity of Order’s Sanctuary — exactly how we find him at the beginning of the Prologue segment of cycle 013, both in the original game and this one.
The only difference in how it’s presented this time around, though, is that following Shinryu’s restarting of the cycle, we’re shown that part of the opening FMV to the first game as the last shot of the ending FMV for cycle 012. They just skipped over Silent Presage and the opening FMV to cycle 013.
“Garland, during this conversation with Golbez, makes it clear that it was the Great Will who pulled him from the time loop.”
I don’t think it necessarily suggests that the Great Will pulled him from anywhere. Especially since Garland’s monologue in Report 12 outright says that Chaos/his future self was the one who placed him there where he met the Great Will.
He speaks of hearing Chaos’s/his own voice explain the existence of the time loop to him as he was saved while on the verge of death at the hands of the Warriors of Light in Cornelia, and that he found himself on World B, thinking he had been taken 2000 years to the past of World A.
I think Garland’s comment about the Great Will saving him is merely a mistake on Garland’s part. He thought this because he was confused as to why he was there in the conflict of Dissidia to begin with if he was supposed to have been taken to World A’s past.
If the events of Dissidia are just part of the overall timeloop of the first FF, Garland probably didn’t know that at first. It seems like he figured it out once he realized that the cycle would be coming to an end, though. That’s probably why he tells Chaos the truth about their relationship toward the end of Shade Impulse/the Epilogue.
Also, notice that in the same conversation with Golbez that you mentioned, Garland says “…There is no end to my cycle, Golbez. As long as he is me… .” That contradicts what Garland said earlier in their conversation about the Great Will saving him.
So, yeah, I think Garland just thought that he’d been saved from the time loop, but realized he was still in it once he found out the Dissidia conflict was ending. After all, it was supposed to last forever — or at least until Chaos grew powerful enough to do what Cid wanted.
“This also begs the question if that the Great Will saved him from the time loop and that was the reason Garland carried out the task of watching over the deities battle for eons, what did the Great Will offer the first time he met Garland (assuming your theory that Garland was originally a product of World B)?”
I wouldn’t worry about this. It’s like trying to establish a beginning to FFVIII’s time loop. You can’t. It just is.
“It should also be noted that Garland was evidently involved in the FFI time loop for a cycle or two anyway, as he describes himself as a ‘prisoner’ of the time loop. If he had only been killed, transported back in time, and immediately thrust into World B in the Dissidia universe, he would have had no time to realize he was trapped in an actual time loop and would simply have deduced he had been pulled 2000 years into the past without any notion that he would repeat the cycle indefinitely.”
Remember, Chaos/his future self told him about the time loop as he was being saved, per Report 12. So he knows he’s supposed to be a prisoner in a time loop the moment he’s rescued.
“…Okay, that was much longer than I intended, but when dealing with a convoluted subject such as time travel, you can seldom be brief.”
No doubt. Have you seen the FAQ that Sir Bahamut, TheOnionKnight and I did on FFVIII?:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/197343-final-fantasy-viii/faqs/34215
“Anyway, just some thoughts on the Garland timeline mystery. Hopefully you can shed even more light on this mind-boggling subject.”
Thanks for your continuing contributions to this analysis. I hope my response was illuminating in some way.
“Even the…primarily text-based exchange between Kefka and the Emperor discussing Sephiroth’s suicide was left out…”
Yeah, and in my opinion that was crap. It sounded like such an awesome occurrence worth covering in 012. I imagine it was primarily due to space constraints, as well (given that it’s still mentioned in Sephiroth’s profile), but I still felt jipped, maybe just because VII’s my favorite title. But seriously, would a two-disc game have been all that bad? Type-0, after all, is rumored to span two UMDs.
“The only difference in how it’s presented this time around, though, is that following Shinryu’s restarting of the cycle, we’re shown that part of the opening FMV to the first game as the last shot of the ending FMV for cycle 012. They just skipped over Silent Presage and the opening FMV to cycle 013.”
I didn’t catch onto that. At least it all makes sense now.
“Especially since Garland’s monologue in Report 12 outright says that Chaos/his future self was the one who placed him there where he met the Great Will.”
Pardon me if I’m being curt, but where is it outright stated? We hear Garland in-game mention on two occasions that the Great Will pulled him into the Dissidia realm: the first is the aforementioned exchange between him and Golbez; the second is while speaking with Chaos (in the Epilogue/Shade Impulse). Garland states: “Before the Great Will led me to
this realm, when I was on the edge of death, it was you who sent me two
thousand years into the past.” He clearly acknowledges Chaos as transporting him through time while simultaneously denoting the Great Will as separately having brought him to the Dissidia realm (transporting him through space, if you will).
In Report 12 there are certainly implications, but I never read where it was explicitly stated that Chaos transported him across dimensions (if I overlooked something, please correct me!). To me it seems to be a logical assumption that Chaos did so, but given the in-game conversations it seems to me that the Great Will is responsible.
As far as whether Garland said the Great Will did because he was mistaken, I guess that’s subject to perspective (unless, again, if I have missed something that definitively proves otherwise). It seems, however, to be unlikely for the sake of storytelling. Why risk confusing players with an intentionally erroneous statement from a character unless it served a specific purpose to the plot?
“I wouldn’t worry about this. It’s like trying to establish a beginning to FFVIII’s time loop. You can’t. It just is.”
Even time has a genesis. It merely cannot be established without more information. In other words, given the lack of information we’re given in Dissidia/FFI about the time loops (as well as FFVIII), yes, I would concur.
On that note, I have in fact seen that well-written FAQ. I admittedly didn’t read the entire thing because it’s been like seven years since I’ve even played FFVIII and it’s not one of my favorites (though I did enjoy it). I thoroughly enjoyed your FFVII/AC plot analysis, though!
“Remember, Chaos/his future self told him about the time loop as he was being saved, per Report 12. So he knows he’s supposed to be a prisoner in a time loop the moment he’s rescued.”
The manner in which Garland presented these revelations to Golbez implied (at least to me) a much more emotionally invested response that simply being told about doesn’t produce. Only experiencing the catastrophe personally would elicit such a deep and heavy lamentation. That being said, I certainly could have perceived that conversation incorrectly and Garland was in fact merely told about it without experiencing it. I don’t know, though; it really did seem like his words were too heavy to not have experienced the time loop for a cycle or. Again, I’m not too haughty to admit I could be wrong.
“Thanks for your continuing contributions to this analysis.”
I’m curious. I ask questions. I’ll be the first to admit my priority is understanding the facets of the story myself, though I am glad if my contributions are helping others reach a greater understanding as well.
-“Yeah, and in my opinion that was crap. It sounded like such an awesome occurrence worth covering in 012.”
It really should have been. That was one of the things that I believe a great many fans were looking forward to seeing depicted.
-“Pardon me if I’m being curt, but where is it outright stated?”
In Report 12 he speaks of Chaos/his future self transporting him several times:
“I heard a voice speak to me as I laid
dying–and that voice was my own.
My words were the only clues I had of the
realm in which I found myself–in which I
assumed time has been frozen for 2000 years.”
“In the present, I no longer have an interest
in carrying my future self back to the past.”
“As I imagined the hatred building inside me
that would eventually and inevitably lead me to
make a irreparable mistake, all I could do
was cower in fear.”
“I often think of the start of the cycle.
I as Chaos summon me from the future;
once summoned, I become Chaos.”
He also speaks of encountering Cid/the Great Will after he’s been wandering for a while, so there’s no indication from his monologue that Cid had anything to do with him appearing there — even if Garland came to believe so himself for whatever reason. For that matter, Cid’s own monologuing from Chaos Report 4 in the first game doesn’t imply that he summoned Garland; only that he came across him in the same way that Garland came across Cid.
-“Why risk confusing players with an intentionally erroneous statement from a character unless it served a specific purpose to the plot?”
Well, it does serve the purpose for the plot of explaining why Garland ever agreed in the first place to assist the Great Will in all these shenanigans.
-“On that note, I have in fact seen that well-written FAQ. I admittedly didn’t read the entire thing because it’s been like seven years since I’ve even played FFVIII and it’s not one of my favorites (though I did enjoy it). I thoroughly enjoyed your FFVII/AC plot analysis, though!”
Thanks for your compliments. =) Glad you enjoyed.
-“Again, I’m not too haughty to admit I could be wrong.”
Me neither. I just can’t see any other way at the moment that the plot would work otherwise. Especially since Cid’s own monologue — and the circumstances under which Garland encounters him (prior even to Cid gaining his disembodied form from Shinryu) — don’t imply the GW to have had any hand in Garland’s appearance on World B.
-“I’m curious. I ask questions. I’ll be the first to admit my priority is understanding the facets of the story myself, though I am glad if my contributions are helping others reach a greater understanding as well.”
They have. Thank you again. =)
Something else that occurred to me to refute my presupposition is that Cid didn’t have access to World A, given that his goal was to cross the door in the Rift to reach his world. So yeah, there’s not really a way he could’ve even accomplished transporting Garland from World A to World B. He couldn’t even get back to World A himself!
That’s a good point too. Hadn’t thought about that.
Perhaps Chaos could summon warriors and couldn’t just teleport himself and Cid because it works one way and not the other? Also, it is established exactly what causes disembodied essences of other worlds to be floating around World B? It seems to be a consequence of Chaos’ very presence, at least as long as he fights Cosmos. In any case, those consciousnesses are accessible because they’re present, and none from World A show up so it may not be included in the Katamari ball. Of Final Fantasy I’s representatives, the Warrior of Light was made in World B and Garland got there by another means, as you outline here.
-“Also, it is established exactly what causes disembodied essences of other worlds to be floating around World B? It seems to be a consequence of Chaos’ very presence, at least as long as he fights Cosmos.”
It would most likely be that those worlds have been shattered and fused into World B.
-“In any case, those consciousnesses are accessible because they’re present, and none from World A show up so it may not be included in the Katamari ball. Of Final Fantasy I’s representatives, the Warrior of Light was made in World B and Garland got there by another means, as you outline here.”
It’s a good question, really, whether the World A version is part of the Katamari ball. It’s not entirely clear. My guess would be yes since the Chaos Shrine shows up as part of gateways and such.
But shattered by what? A consequence of the fact that Chaos and Cosmos fight, rather than intentional reaching for the other worlds on their parts?
It seems to have been a deliberate action on the gods’ part, probably at the same time as when they acquired their warriors. Here’s what Golbez had to say on the matter:
“This world is formed of shards brought from different realms by the two gods.”
I meant “is it established”, not “it is established”.
I read in other summaries that Chaos went crazy in 018 in the “Confessions of the Creator” alterniverse because he kept losing to Cosmos, not because he kept winning. For instance, here: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Feral_Chaos
That was a misunderstanding some of us had early on, but, no, Cid is very specific that Cosmos lost every time in the 000 story:
“Cosmos was true to her mission, even as she lost her memory after every purification.”
Has anyone ever considered that Cid, Chaos and Cosmos’ powered are limited to this world only and would not allow them to escape while still allowing them to pull others in from outside?